The moments that call for a saving throw represent the pinnacle of tension in D&D. They lie at the crossroads of defeat and success, of life and death, and can be the culmination of an evening or a year's campaigning. So why are we rolling a die at this high point? Why are we leaving the resolution of our shared time to random chance, no matter how intelligently or recklessly the game has been played?
The moments that call for a saving throw represent the mundane points of D&D: a pit placed in a hallway, a random trap rolled off some table, or the effects of a harsh environment. Again, random chance takes the place of smart/careless behavior and turns these aspects into something resembling adventuring attrition.
Saving throws are overused. When I first talked about taking attrition damage during overland travel, one commenter wanted to add a save to avoid a day's damage. Like you can really avoid the effects of the environment by being bad-ass? More likely, he was calling for saves because the PCs are precious and should be afforded every opportunity to survive/thrive regardless of smart/reckless play.
Well, the real reason saves are overused is because D&D is under-designed. How many mechanics are just rolled up into a saving throw? Spells, abilities, effects, poison, traps, magic items, the list goes on and on. Just throw a save on an action to create a lazy mechanic to adjudicate its effects. It isn't even a robust and elegant mechanic that could be applied to numerous situations; it is just lazy. Maybe the original designers ran out of creative steam and then we all just kind of turned a blind eye to this gaping hole in the game's mechanics. Or maybe we are blind to the failings of tradition.
Either way, saving throws are a boring, lazy, static mechanic that form an umbrella over countless actions and opportunities in game that could have mechanics designed to add tension, flow, and enjoyment to the game.
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The idea of a save is that a sickly guy won't deal with a harsh environment as well as a rugged healthy person.
ReplyDeleteSo what mechanic(s) would you put in place so that saving throws are no longer needed?
ReplyDeletePhilo,
ReplyDeleteYou are missing a fundamental link, the rugged healthy guy (high Con or a rugged warrior class) has more hit points than the sickly guy. Hence, he will survive longer due to harsh conditions all other things being equal. Adding a save on top of it turns the mechanic from something dynamic and fluid into just another roll-roll-roll, oh I had bad luck, sucks to be me, maybe next time I can cross the Sahara on foot without water. Guaranteed attrition means you have to plan expeditions, but a saving throw invalidates that and replaces a good portion of that with luck.
Granger,
Rome wasn't built in a day... but the concept of attrition due to overland travel that requires a planned expedition is something fluid and dynamic, where a save is static and anti-climatic. It is a good example, but I don't have all the solutions at the present moment. Still, saves suck and need to be replaced :D
"Adding a save on top of it turns the mechanic from something dynamic and fluid into just another roll-roll-roll, oh I had bad luck, sucks to be me, maybe next time I can cross the Sahara on foot without water. Guaranteed attrition means you have to plan expeditions, but a saving throw invalidates that and replaces a good portion of that with luck."
ReplyDelete*jaw drops* Apparently we have very different definitions of fluid and dynamic. Your system seems rigid and deterministic to me. You make the same journey, you take the same damage every time. You never run across edible mushrooms at the right point or trip and sprain your ankle tripping over a root. Life is random and Every once in a while you hear about people surviving in conditions that nobody would expect. Your system doesn't have an option for that.
Actually, I agree with you that overland travel shouldn't be a save. It should be a skill check. Many of the factors you take into place would be modifiers. I'd have different effects for degrees of success or failure - if they're trying to cross the Sahara without water they won't be unscathed by the experience. This is assuming that travel was moderately significant to this story. If the travel is a major part of the adventure, I'd want more detail - we're going to roleplay it out and make it a night's adventure. If the travel isn't important you will see the big red line crossing the map. I might have a skill check or two or I might not even bother with that.
But you weren't just talking about travel. You mentioned that saves are used in lots of places. Do you have a "robust and elegant" mechanic that can be applied to "spells, abilities, effects, poison, traps, magic items, the list goes on and on"? Do you suggest a different mechanic for each one? I definitely don't feel that a collection of unrelated mechanics is elegant. I don't want to spend the game cross referencing "Toxin Chart 23b - Reptile venom (giant)" with "Herb effects (Nightlace)" and "Suction chart (fighter)" and "Hydration effects (Ounces consumed vs body weight by activity and climate)". Yes, this is more realistic. But it's not more fun for me.
The attrition system example isn't about skill checks, luck, or saves. It is about the fact that when you are laboring or traveling in 90F weather with 90% humidity, it takes a toll on your body. This happens regardless of whether you trip or find mushrooms or have some sort of skills. No skill in the world regulates your body temperature.
ReplyDeleteMost of the rest of your comment is against a straw-man argument that I am not making. Attrition doesn't replace playing, it doesn't replace detail, it doesn't replace hand-waving a journey to move a session forward. It applies hitpoint damage when traveling/working in harsh climates. I don't even know where you got most of your comment from... Certainly from nothing I've written here.
"More likely, he was calling for saves because the PCs are precious and should be afforded every opportunity to survive/thrive regardless of smart/reckless play."
ReplyDeleteActually it was the 0-level human I was concerned about. Under possible attrition rules 3 days wilderness travel = 100% death!
Glad you are working on this subject again. Much neglected.
Fair enough.
ReplyDeleteDo 0th level NPCs even have a save? Either way, there are many ways to avoid this issue without resorting to saves (I've detailed some on this blog), without mucking up the system with a save. And saves definitely muck this up.
Would you even want to use saves? They kind of suck at low level, so do 75% of 0th level NPCs die every time you call for a save?
No skill in the world regulates your body temperature.
ReplyDeleteMan uses meditation to regulate body temperature: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/22/wim-hof-dutch-iceman-cont_n_865203.html
You are retarded. Our Dutch hero still dies from hypothermia, he just can control some of the symptoms on the way there. Nothing he is doing is preventing the loss of his own body heat to the atmosphere.
ReplyDeletePlus, the Huffington Post is a clearing house for press releases that masquerade as news articles. Why not quote Wikipedia at me too?